Tora! Tora! Tora!

[Lord Ewen]

Yes, I figured I would just anticipate Dave’s title for this thread, save him the trouble. Before we proceed to planning, I thought I would offer a collection of reflections which have occurred to me during, and since, the session.

I was far too skeptical of pursuing an observational recon of the Cask and Flagon. Thanks to some outstanding intelligence work by Cheryl, we now have some leads to pursue. I am suitably chastened. Reminded me of the old gumshoe adage, about the need to burn shoe leather in order to progress in a case. Often the best thing to do is get out and talk to people. Worth keeping in mind in the future, no?.

Tora may be a good prospect for recruitment by Sir Baris, although her former Laranian affiliation might make for an awkward fit. She appears to have excellent observational skills, and may perhaps be gotten on the cheap due to her infatuation with the doughty Baris. The only uneasy thing is the whole Marina connection. Do we know who originally put Marina on to Baris? Is someone continuing to pull the strings here, and are they friend or foe?

Vemion said he didn’t know Sir Ewen was a candidate for Thilisa’s hand, indicating that Thilisa never told him. Which probably means Vemion doesn’t know about the Deryni thing. Vemion also seemed to confirm Sir Rollard’s report that a choice had been made. But, by Vemion or Thilisa? What do we make of all this?

Sir Toren Curo is going to be (has been?) questioned by Vemion regarding patronage of the Sir Forren play. He will deny this and probably claim (if I had to guess) that the clever patron framed him as well. Unless Vemion has questioned the thespian very cleverly (obtaining, say, some specific detail about the meeting between Bors and Toren that inarguably confirms that Bors met with Toren), I suspect Sir Toren will maintain some plausible deniability. Which leads me to conclude that we have more work to do convincing Vemion that Sir Toren was behind the play, and possibly behind the other attacks on Ewen’s character.

Vemion appeared to mentally check something off his list when Ewen stated he did not elicit the name of the patron from Bors. I took this to mean he was comparing Ewen's story with Bors's account. Also wondered if he was drawing a conclusion (good? bad?) from Sir Ewen stopping short of more dire methods.

One interesting trump card we know, which we should not. We know the name Dregald, which we only obtained by Kaelyn’s scrying. Something to keep in mind. Could dropping the name (i.e. spuriously claiming we overheard the name used by the quartet, say) implicate Curo, and seem innocent enough, as we have never met the gent?

Imarë's tracking, and Tora's testimony, appear to conclusively to exonerate Sir Rollard as bad guy in the kidnapping, in spite of his suspicious (but necessary, to frame Sir Ewen) survival, no? Anyone not a taker?

The session closed with our decision to take Tora before Vemion. We still, however, have time to reconsider. Seeing Thilisa return to safety only to have her marry another man has little to recommend it, although her safe return would presumably clear the present cloud of suspicion lingering over our heads. One working goal should be to have our group, and Sir Ewen specifically, rescue the Lady if at all possible. Another goal should be instigating a baronial war, if at all possible, between Vemion and whoever is behind the kidnapping of Thilisa (assuming they are affiliated with a major family, which I think we do assume). These goals may, to some degree, work at cross-purposes to each other, but perhaps they don’t have to. At any rate, if we feed Vemion the information we have obtained from Tora, only to have his men rescue the Lady while we are elsewhere chasing a lead, our roles become that of bit players. I doubt Thilisa will marry Sir Ewen out of pity that he was framed. A rescue would be good, a daring one better. I said in session that Vemion had more resources to pursue Tora’s leads (the description of the horses and riders) than we do, but let us consider. Is that necessarily true? Outside Minarsas, yes. Vemion could send riders all over the place looking for this group of horses in nearby settlements. But could (should?) we manage checking the Minarsas stables ourselves, tonight, before we admit defeat and let Vemion run with it?

[Imarë]

First, congratulations on the thread title. I would not have done it (really!) because it would have been expected (if that makes sense). Second, there were two plans for the evening. Having Cheryl go and listen was the one I liked. The other popular one was the heavies of the group go and lean on the four staying there, which I don't believe would have gotten us where we got.

It seems to me that we know the kidnap party came from the Green Dragon. We only questioned the ostler himself, not his staff. Someone else may have seen the party in question leave, would have had to get them their horses. Now that we know the actual numbers and time a closer questioning can go on. As to whether to bring the Earl in... he does have one big advantage over us, nobody is going to ask the Earl of Vemion why he wants a piece of information about important clients of the inn, which is much of the response we got. It is not known that Sir Ewen is helping the earl and has no known connection to him so I believe people are loth to give information about other noble clients.

From what Imare could get from the tracks, the lady is somewhere very close to the town. Of more import would be to find out if there was anything special about the horse she was riding and look for that. We never requested that information and the beast has not been found either.

It sound like Thilisa has her own plans, which do not include the input of her father. I am not sure that Sir Rollard is a confidant of her inner thoughts either. I would not count Sir Ewen totally out until it comes from her lips but a rescue might help and at the least put another notch in the belt of the reputation of Sir Ewen. If he could stir up trouble between noble families and cause in-fighting within Kaldor, that is just bonus points.

Tora is an interesting character. While Sir Ewen has a great number of followers, few in number are archers. A small group of these in a fight could be of great advantage. Look how easily two archers led to the kidnap of the lady, taking down an armed knight who was unable to do anything about it. If Tora is as good as she claims, she really could be a good addition. I think as long as we can duct tape Sir Baris' mouth closed about his feelings about Larani and don't go around doing openly evil things, all should be good.

[Lord Ewen]

One note of caution, before I leave for work. We know the riders were dispatched from the Green Dragon Inn, but that does not mean they necessarily were stabled there, does it? Perhaps the Green Dragon Inn was only where the "green light" for the abduction was given?

[Imarë]

True, but since the riders left from there, the other places would have no information on them. Checking all the places horses might be is a good idea, which is why I wondered if there was something special about the kidnapped horse.

[Matt]

Sir Rollard would, of course, be the right person to ask about Thilisa's horse.

[Sir Baris]

Seeing Thilisa return to safety only to have her marry another man has little to recommend it...

That's cold man, cold.

On the point of checking out a few things before bringing Tora to Vemion (about horses and such), I recall we mentioned that not bringing her there quickly might piss him off, especially considering his current mood. On the other hand, we could do a quick bit of intelligence gathering on the pretense of being able to bring more information to Vemion as soon as possible. It just so happens that this allows members of our party to get a head start on Vemion's forces in the race to rescue Thilisa.

[Lord Ewen]

Yes, that's precisely what I had in mind. Come up with a specific plan (like check these three stables tonight for a stableboy who recognizes that combination of four horses, say) which could reasonably be explained as checking our sources of information before bothering the earl. I would hate to miss the chance to follow something up and let the Earl's men get the glory.

If Dave is right about his tracking, and they are in the vicinity of Minarsas, I wonder when they will realize that their frame of Sir Ewen has failed (he's not in the dungeon). Have they realized it already? What is their next move?

Doesn't departure from the Green Dragon Inn as witnessed by Tora close the logical noose a little tighter around Sir Toren? It's just another piece of data that happens to fit him, and we have yet to find a data point that impugns an alternate suspect. With Sir Rollard seemingly off the hook, Sir Toren looks more suspicious than ever.

[Sir Baris]

Doesn't departure from the Green Dragon Inn as witnessed by Tora close the logical noose a little tighter around Sir Toren? It's just another piece of data that happens to fit him, and we have yet to find a data point that impugns an alternate suspect. With Sir Rollard seemingly off the hook, Sir Toren looks more suspicious than ever.

It is starting to look that way. What do we do about it?

Presumably Toren is being questioned/under house arrest right now, so we can't exactly bring him to the Earl (or question him ourselves). If we find evidence, should we try to capture and question Toren provided he isn't in custody already?

Question for Matt- during the session you mentioned that since Sir Ewen's honor was at stake, he had some justification in pursuing an investigation on his own, despite the fact that he is on the Earl's lands. If I recall, that was in the context of accosting actors. How does that translate into pursuing a fellow knight like Toren? Are we legally required to go to the Earl? As an aside, if we are not legally required to go to the Earl, I think we should strongly consider it, considering how much the Earl likes Toren.

[Lord Ewen]

My recollection is that we did discuss Sir Ewen calling out Sir Toren, if Bors publically admitted being hired by Sir Toren to besmirch Sir Ewen's good name. FWIW, here's my take on it, before Matt weighs in. The degree to which the offense is "public" is, I think, an important factor here, if the offended knight is going to take matters into his own hands while within the Earl's jurisdiction. Offenses against one's honor rank in severity, in part, by the degree to which the offense was witnessed by third parties. If Sir Toren offends Sir Ewen when no one is around, Sir Ewen may choose to ignore it, but if a third party witnesses the offense then Sir Ewen's discretion to ignore the offense decreases if he is to keep his public honor and dignity intact. On the other hand, if Sir Ewen persecutes Sir Toren without ample evidence (i.e. evidence that third parties would admit is valid and actionable), Sir Toren is within his rights to act as if Sir Ewen is the wrongdoer, and to defend his own honor. The Earl is the final arbiter in his domain, but if one of the knights sustains a public offense to his honor then that knight does not need the Earl's permission to take action. But Sir Ewen needs to be careful not to act on shaky evidence, or else he becomes the offending party.

Teddy, it's unclear to me whether Sir Toren is in custody at this point, unless perhaps I missed something Matt said in session to suggest that. The Earl seemed incredulous at Bors testimony impugning Sir Toren, and might have accepted Sir Toren's explanation as proferred. Or, Sir Toren's ploy (that's how I take it) of being under the weather and confined to his room might have bought him some time, and he has not yet been questioned by the Earl (although you would think the urgency of the Earl's plight would override Sir Toren's excuse here). The Earl might even be seeing the Sir Forren play as a side-show and not directly relevant to the disappearance of his daughter, although I don't think that's the case, because the Earl is an intelligent guy and seems clear on the fact that enemies of Sir Ewen are behind Thilisa's disappearance.

At any rate, my feeling is that Sir Toren has a fund of goodwill from the Earl based on their earlier relationship that is not yet exhausted by Bor's "outrageous" testimony. It will take more evidence, accumulated presumably by us, to tip the balance and get Sir Toren arrested. Assuming, that is, that the accumulating circumstantial evidence means he is guilty. As Matt said in session, there may be three separate plots against Sir Ewen (the play, the assassin, and the kidnapping). Or there may be two. Occam's Razor, however, says just one.

A final, more concrete, thought. What if we could find a stable-boy tonight who confirms that, yes, last night four horses bearing the description Tora gave were stabled here. There must be some roster of which horse belongs to whom, or a stablehand who remembers who came to collect the horses this morning. I mean, the ostler at the Green Dragon isn't going to let anybody come in and take Iblis out, or any other horse for that matter, right? I mean, horses are highly valuable, and there are a lot of knights around, and it's the ostler's hide if he lets someone else ride Sir What's-His-Name's horse, no? So if we find the right stable, I feel like we stand a good chance tonight of obtaining an actionable lead.

Unless, of course, the kidnappers had the forsight to register the horses under our names.

[Matt]

Van grasps the point of honor perfectly.

I implied through Vemion's actions that he would be questioning Sir Toren in the near term. However, I did not elaborate on details.

[Imarë]

Sorry to have been off for so long but I have been busy playing with the iToy and have not logged onto the forum with my id.

Just some random thoughts have hit me. I am thinking that the "Sir Forren" attack may be too ham-handed for Sir Toren. What is the evidence we have? The word of an actor that the man who hired him said he was Sir Toren. Would Bors know Sir Toren? Would someone who was the squire of the Earl be stupid enough to instigate such a plot using his own name knowing that there was a good chance the Earl would hear about it and take a fairly standard avenue to find out why? What if there were another party that for some reason wanted to foster a rift between Neph and Vemion? Someone who also has something against Sir Ewen (or sees him as a convenient foil against Sir Toren). The clues all lead to the Green Dragon but Sir Toren is not the only one staying there. The four associates who came with Sir Toren never mentioned coming with more retinue, capable of this and they seem to consider themselves part of the "A" team. Another thing that bothers me has less to do with clues found than the ease of finding all the ones pointing to Sir Toren. To my mind the clues have come too easily. From not being able to catch a cold, we have (to us at least) clear proof of someones culpability. Does this sound like any GM we know?? I really don't think so.

Who could be behind this? Someone who knew several months ago that Sir Ewen would be at the wedding. Someone who knew that Thilisa had a habit of hunting early in the morning with a small group (otherwise why only four?). Someone who has a place to imprison a notable person within the town where she presumably grew up and was well known.

Any other thoughts about this alternative scenario?

[Lord Ewen]

Recall, Dave, that our evidence comes from Ewen reading Bors. The GM did not go into great detail, but clearly confirmed that Bors was concealing the identity of Sir Toren as the patron of the Sir Forren play. Sir Ewen knows what Sir Toren looks like, because Sir Andro pointed Curo out to Sir Ewen during the Noble's Feast, as documented in Teddy's notes. I assume Ewen got a clear view of Toren when he read Bors, or else Matt would have been more careful of his wording in describing the outcome of reading Bors. Thus, I'm afraid your alternate scenario doesn't hold up, but perhaps Matt can adjudicate.

[Matt]

Nope, that's about the size of it. Positive ID on the rapport.

[Lord Ewen]

Dave's critique of Sir Toren's scheme is perhaps a bit hard on this seventh son of Earl Curo. Sir Toren clearly had intimidated Bors to the point where he was quite worried about what Sir Toren would do to him if he squealed, and not quite as worried about Sir Ewen's fog-shrouded appearance amongst the tombstones. That's pretty scared, I would say. What's more, Toren was likely counting on the Earl's incredulity if Bors spilled the beans, which we indeed witnessed first hand. And clearly Sir Toren would be highly unlikely to consider mind-reading as a possible flaw in the plan. At any rate, I tend to think the Sir Forren ploy was a rather nasty stroke, and not terribly ham-handed at all.

As for our quartet at the Cask & Flagon, I don't see them as the A-team at all. I am of the present opinion that Neph (and I do think Neph is behind all of this) is employing multiple teams, with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, for multiple obvious reasons. I think one team is the B-team - our quartet - and these guys do the more banal work of keeping tabs on us, sending in regular reports of our whereabouts perhaps, and so on. They do little or no dirty work, and that girl may well be a Peonian priestess after all. They may think they are the A-team, but that's laughable. They seem amateurish, fretting about their cover being blown, oblivious to Cekiya seated next to them. They are not up to any major skullduggery, and so there's no downside to Sir Toren traveling with them. Then there is an A-team, who are all about attempted murder, kidnapping, and other ugly past-times, and if I had to guess my hunch is that Dregald captains these guys, and might even have ridden the black horse in the kidnapping. Just a guess, sans evidence, mind you. The B-team has no clue about the A-team, which is exactly as it should be. And the A-team is never wasted on mundane matters, which would place them at risk; that's what the B-team is for. A-team is preserved for the nasty stuff. And yes, I think Sir Toren directs both of these teams at some level, but I bet the A-team would possibly override the whelp if they thought his father would approve. The B-team probably would never risk such a move, not having enough information about what the boss wants to act independently anyway, and spend most of their time fretting about pleasing their masters.

Not that I'm claiming the B-team quartet would be pushovers if it came down to combat, but I think they are lower on the food chain than whoever grabbed Thilisa, and whoever climbed through my window with that knife.

Lots of conjecture, admittedly, but I thought I would post it since it differs with Dave's comments above.

[Lord Ewen]

Well, allow me to cut through the usual cacophony of voices on the forum to make some pedestrian inquiries of the GM. To wit, are Stables run like Valet Parking?

It seems to me that our next step involves tracing the four horses witnessed by Tora, and it would save session time to clarify here some realities of everyday Harnic life with which our characters are likely quite familiar, but of which we players are (or I am, at least) rather more ignorant.

What exactly happens when you arrive at an inn and stable your horse? Are written records kept of riders and their respective horses, or is pure memory work involved? Do you get a chit to redeem for your horse? How do ostlers prevent someone from innocently, or maliciously, taking out someone else's steed for a ride, or outright stealing it for that matter? Surely Sir Baris, when he decides to go out hunting in the afternoon, will be incensed if he arrives at the stable to find his mount all knackered out because somebody else has been riding the beast; how does the busy ostler avoid this logistical and professional nightmare, especially during the busy times (noble wedding, wool fair, etc.)? The ostler naturally has stablehands and such working for him; how does he make sure the boy tending the stable overnight doesn't give somebody the wrong horse? How does one access one's horse after hours, say if one has to leave town during an emergency? Are riders paired to horses by rider's name, or by description ("the bay mare in the end stall is owned by the tall guy with the hooked nose who arrived yesterday")? Is the owner-steed relationship a matter of public knowledge, or does the ostler maintain a certain level of confidentiality about such things ("Who owns that beautiful black Khanset mare?" "None of your business, mate.")? Would an ostler or stablehand answer a question by a knight about who is the owner of a non-knight's horse? Do inns ever stable horses of folks who are not staying at the inn? And is my assumption correct that such an arrangement would certainly not be the case at the present time in Minarsis?

The fellow we spoke to at the Green Dragon Inn had so many horses going in and out earlier this morning that he couldn't provide much information, aside from the fact that Sir Ewen's rather unique Khanset handn't left. But surely horses only went out with their proper owners? Ostlers are guilded, so I imagine a certain level of record keeping is more likely to be involved than in non-guilded professions. We characters may never see most of those records, but I would think we would have absorbed a certain level of understanding of some of these things by now.

Finally, while I'm putting the GM through his paces here , refresh my memory if you please. Stables of which we are aware in Minarsis include one each at the three inns (Green Dragon, White Horse, and Cask & Flagon), presumably one within the castle walls, and a freehold ostler located between the graveyard and the market square? Does that cover it? None of the knights, for instance, are parking their horses near their tents on the common due to lack of space or something? Do the temples (Laranian and Peonian) have their own private stables? Any there any other stabling locations we would have already obviously noted in our various peregrinations about town?

[Matt]

To wit, are Stables run like Valet Parking?

No.

What exactly happens when you arrive at an inn and stable your horse?

While it will differ in detail of course, in general the process is pretty straightforward. Those guests of an inn who wish to stable their mounts bring them to the ostler or one of his apprentices. If there is room, the horse is placed in a stall, if not, typically in an enclosed paddock. Horses will be watered and fed daily and the fee for this service is a typically a penny. Additional services such as grooming, tack maintenance, shoeing, etc. all have separate fees.

Are written records kept of riders and their respective horses, or is pure memory work involved? Do you get a chit to redeem for your horse?

Mostly memory, although some ostlers might use a system like chits in a very large establishment. Horsetheft being a capital offense, to some degree, the honor system is used.

How do ostlers prevent someone from innocently, or maliciously, taking out someone else's steed for a ride, or outright stealing it for that matter?

These are two separate issues. Mistakes will be made, naturally, but since a relatively small percentage of an inn's guests will be mounted, such mistakes would be rare. The ostler will remember the guest and ideally the right horse, and presumably the guest will know the horse. Theft would have to be done without the ostler's knowledge, presuming the ostler to be honest.

how does the busy ostler avoid this logistical and professional nightmare, especially during the busy times (noble wedding, wool fair, etc.)? The ostler naturally has stablehands and such working for him; how does he make sure the boy tending the stable overnight doesn't give somebody the wrong horse?

Most ostlers sleep in their stables or nearby if they have a family. Clearly, the present circumstances are unusual, hence why you were told that not everyone was able to stable their horse at the GD. If ever such a mistake were to be made, this would be the time because the usual situation is inverted - practically everyone staying at the GD has a horse. On at least a daily basis, the ostler and his people would inspect the stables to make sure everyone was aware of each horse.

How does one access one's horse after hours, say if one has to leave town during an emergency?

One could wake the ostler or simply saddle the horse and take it. The latter does carry with it the possibility of the hue and cry if the ostler notices a mount missing, but he would probably check the inn first for the owner.

Are riders paired to horses by rider's name, or by description ("the bay mare in the end stall is owned by the tall guy with the hooked nose who arrived yesterday")?

I've not given this aspect any thought before, but I would think a combination. (That bay mare belongs to the slip of a girl with dark hair and no sense of humor. We didn't get her name but she's with Sir Ewen.)

Is the owner-steed relationship a matter of public knowledge, or does the ostler maintain a certain level of confidentiality about such things

This needs vary. Some will be open about it, and some will be tight-lipped and some in between.

("Who owns that beautiful black Khanset mare?" "None of your business, mate.")? Would an ostler or stablehand answer a question by a knight about who is the owner of a non-knight's horse?

This is a special case. Any ostler worth his salt will be more discreet about a valuable animal like a khanset or a warhorse. And rank hath its privileges - a knight or lord asking a question stands a better chance of it being answered.

Do inns ever stable horses of folks who are not staying at the inn? And is my assumption correct that such an arrangement would certainly not be the case at the present time in Minarsas?

Yes to both. This practice would be common in small manors where the horse traffic is lighter and the space might be used by the lord or even a yeoman. It's unlikely that it is the case in Minarsas at any time.

The fellow we spoke to at the Green Dragon Inn had so many horses going in and out earlier this morning that he couldn't provide much information, aside from the fact that Sir Ewen's rather unique Khanset handn't left. But surely horses only went out with their proper owners?

He certainly didn't imply otherwise. Also, recall that there are 14 stalls in the barn and no paddock.

Ostlers are guilded, so I imagine a certain level of record keeping is more likely to be involved than in non-guilded professions.

Here the literacy factor raises its ugly head. Ostlers are not, as a rule, literate. The system they would use is similar to tally sticks, and then primarily to keep track of a guest's fees. When the guest leaves, the relevant tally stick becomes kindling. Of course, some might be literate and they would probably use a wax tablet and stylus system. Such tablets, as you know, are reusable by warming the wax and smoothing it out for the next use. The result again is no long-term records. The GD is using tally sticks.

Stables of which we are aware in Minarsas include one each at the three inns (Green Dragon, White Horse, and Cask & Flagon), presumably one within the castle walls, and a freehold ostler located between the graveyard and the market square? Does that cover it?

Yes except the stable at the C&F is empty (by which you may infer there is no ostler as it would be a breach of guild privilege to stable horses there without one), and the freehold ostler is south of the market square.

None of the knights, for instance, are parking their horses near their tents on the common due to lack of space or something?

Indeed they are - quite a few of them. Common practice is to set up a line between two poles or trees and tether the horses to the line.

Do the temples (Laranian and Peonian) have their own private stables? Any there any other stabling locations we would have already obviously noted in our various peregrinations about town?

None of which you are aware.

[Lord Ewen]

Many thanks for answering so many questions! I shall digest, and then post anew...

[Imarë]

I can now sit at my computer without melting from the heat so I will update my posts.

I had missed that the descriptions matched, I only remembered that Bors said it was Sir Toren. Thanks for the detail.

My advice would be to put all of Tora's information in a note to the castle and go out and start following up on the information while it is being delivered. Going to the Earl with every little tidbit we find would look to me like we are trying to curry favor (which is what we are trying to do, just not look like it). This way the Earl would have the information and would see that Sir Ewen is not wasting a moment looking for his true love (the heir to the Earldom of Vemion, what's her name). The osltlers and stables seem to be the place to start (leaving and coming back).

[Matt]

I can now sit at my computer without melting from the heat so I will update my posts.

Can you not post with the iPad?

[Lord Ewen]

Indeed. I post with my iPhone all of the time, although the small screen makes the process somewhat cumbrous. A compatible forum reader app would be swell...

[Lord Ewen]

I like Dave's idea of sending a letter to the castle, BTW. I also think we should retain Tora. Perhaps she would be an affordable henchman for Sir Baris, given her infatuation with the big hunk?

[Imarë]

I haven't signed in with the correct password yet onto the iPad. If you are not signed in, you cannot post. I have discovered the 2x button on diceshaker, making it much more impressive on the pad.

A few good bow-people would be good for the offensive power (not that we are not offensive enough). If she is as good as she indicates, it would be a good start.

[Matt]

I haven't signed in with the correct password yet onto the iPad. If you are not signed in, you cannot post.

Have you forgotten your password? I can reset it if need be.

[Imarë]

The iPad is now in operation and I should be able to post more regularly, even while on vacation. Touch typing is not an option on this, the keys are way too sensitive for that.